| Forum: Main Forum |
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| Topic: Ford's Expresses Concern For Using Aftermarket Parts |
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Posts: 571
Location:
scotland
Registered:
December 2005
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Re: Ford's Expresses Concern For Using Aftermarket Parts
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Thu, 29 July 2010 10:37
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Ford raised similar concerns here last year.
water test were carried out on heavily scratched painted panels i.e down to the metal.
A.M corroded far more quickly, what was more of a concern was the way a bonnet/hood re-acted in a crash the crumple effect was vastly different.
A.M. market will always be present
how many on here would fit an after market hood and bumper to a 10 year old car to stop it being totalled.
it's a bit of a catch 22 situation sometimes.
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JMR
Senior Member
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Posts: 612
Location:
CLINTON TWP
Registered:
December 2007
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Re: Ford's Expresses Concern For Using Aftermarket Parts
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Thu, 29 July 2010 12:32
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| dunsdale wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 10:37 |
how many on here would fit an after market hood and bumper to a 10 year old car to stop it being totalled.
it's a bit of a catch 22 situation sometimes.
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Here in the states the law is you cannot sign away your rights, that being said if you knowingly put a part on a vehicle or repair knowingly that it is unsafe you are open 'game' for the barristers.
Unfortunately hoods/bonnets are now more and more being made out of HSS and other exotic metals that react differant than cold rolled steel.
Just because a OE hood would 'total' a car is not a good reason to put your customer in danger.
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Posts: 571
Location:
scotland
Registered:
December 2005
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Posts: 52
Location:
Wareham, Mass
Registered:
April 2010
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Re: Ford's Expresses Concern For Using Aftermarket Parts
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Thu, 29 July 2010 13:52
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There is no reasonable person that I know who would argue with Ford's findings. Here in good old Massachusetts we have state regulation about aftermarket and used parts. The licensed appraiser must look for the most "cost effective" (they always interpret that to mean the cheapest) part once the vehicle is older than 12 months or 20,000 miles. The shop is expected to purchase the part, and the burden of proof is on us to show that it does not fit the vehicle, or that it is otherwise unfit for use. In most cases this requires installing the aftermarket part, calling the appraiser, then waiting up to three days for the appraiser to confirm the poor fit, and write for OEM. This has been taken in many directions, but definately slows down the process. Licensed Massachusetts body shops are required to have a licensed appraiser on staff, and licensed appraisers (again in Massachusetts) must attempt to negotiate the loss with the insurance appraiser in good faith. All appraisers must be licensed by the Commonwealth, and only a licensed appraiser can access damage in this state. We have a licensing board to monitor the appraisers, and handle complaints, but this board is very ineffective.
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Posts: 400
Location:
AZ
Registered:
April 2008
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Do you want effective?
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Thu, 29 July 2010 14:24
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When you have those customers that don't care what goes on their car as long as it does not cost them, and a company that loves to reimburse based on Taiwan Tin.. install the aftermarket parts taking basic measurements and photos, have a liability waiver signed at the end of repair and send the entire packet to the insurers home office with a request it become part of the claim file.
With this process, one customer had the vehicle purchased from her insurer. You will be amazed at what the insurance company will do to make evidence go away.
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JMR
Senior Member
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Posts: 612
Location:
CLINTON TWP
Registered:
December 2007
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Re: Ford's Expresses Concern For Using Aftermarket Parts
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Thu, 29 July 2010 14:52
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[quote title=dunsdale wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 12:38So low, only the liars say they new about those type steels back then lol[/quote]
Ok steels was a bad example. How about poor attaching points hinge areas failing.
Everyone knows about these things and a attorney is waiting to cut your head off if one of these hood cuts his clients head off.
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| Topic: New statement from Ford comes timely for one customer |
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Posts: 471
Location:
Joplin, MO
Registered:
March 2006
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New statement from Ford comes timely for one customer
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Thu, 29 July 2010 19:17
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Claims adjuster lies in his response to customer refusal to accept aftermarket bumper brackets on their Ford Superduty truck. Pulls the "laws says we can do it card" on the third party claimant.
1. They are not certified
2. Ford says they are not like, kind, and quality.
3. Vague about which law he is referring to.
4. Says he spoke to the shop on all these matters. (big lie)
Paraphrased and edited,,,,,,Based on the miles and year of the truck we are by law entitled to use a/m or lkq parts for replacement. The lkq parts are off a Ford so those are oem or original equipment from the manufacturer and as far as the a/m the parts are certified in like kind and quality
Ford statement in todays BSB article.
http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/Article/77752/ford_unveils_r esults_of_crash_part_testing_at_cic.aspx
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As far as the bumper brackets, Ford’s tests found that the weight and the thickness of the OEM was nearly double that of the aftermarket. Massie said Ford’s are made of high-strength steel but admitted the aftermarket bumper brackets were not tested for material.
“But if they’re a lot thinner and the weight is a lot less, to me that’s not like, kind and quality,” Massie said.
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[Updated on: Thu, 29 July 2010 20:14]
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| Forum: Technical Forum |
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| Topic: ppg dbc delam....??????? |
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Posts: 2
Location:
orangeville pa
Registered:
July 2010
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ppg dbc delam....???????
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Thu, 29 July 2010 16:12
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I have had several random delaminaton issues in the past six months. I use dbc base coats with 3000 or shop line 630 clears. My air delivery was tested and is dry and clean. What I end up with is the job developing small bubbles randomly throughout the panel. More on the tops and sail panels than in the middle of the panel. The trouble is the jobs look perfect when they leave the shop. The problems start to appear around 3 to four weeks after completion. Has any one had this trouble. I get clusters of bubbles all over the tops of the panels. Each bubble is no more than a 1/16 in diameter. PPG reps seem to just throw money at the problem but have offered no solution. They claim this is the first time they have seen it. It also doesn't happen on every job. Some jobs are over a year old and appear to be perfect. I spray in a cross draft with a low measured air flow. Could fall out be my problem? I do notice some base overspray laying dry on my panels but try to tack them in between every coat. thanks in advance!
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Posts: 561
Location:
VIRGINIA
Registered:
October 2007
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Re: ppg dbc delam....???????
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Thu, 29 July 2010 18:42
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it still sounds like a moisture problem.have your jobber test the air.I had the same problem last year with standox and we have a seperate drier for the both but it turned out it was not working correctly.
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Posts: 2
Location:
orangeville pa
Registered:
July 2010
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Re: ppg dbc delam....???????
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Thu, 29 July 2010 19:58
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they tested my air supply it was around 5% which they thought was fine. Would the vehicle being washed in hard water cause this problem maybe? I do notice around all my faucets there is rust so there must be alot of iron in my water. Some of the bubbles seem to be in shapes of water stains that might have been there prior to painting. I am wiping down with solvent and water borne degreasers. This problem is stressing me big time 
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| Topic: MITCHELL ULTRAMATE 7.0 |
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Posts: 561
Location:
VIRGINIA
Registered:
October 2007
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Re: MITCHELL ULTRAMATE 7.0
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Thu, 29 July 2010 14:25
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i have always used ccc and liken it to the lesser of three evils It seems im spending more time calling the dealers for schematics to find half of what im looking for nowdays.Everytime a new version comes out its still the same half assed program with a new price.They still haven't fixed the dam custome phone number bug that deletes it if you don't hit tab before moving on and it's been that way since 3.1 lol.We need to upgrade the shop computers and ccc has no idea if or when they are going to change it to work with win7 64
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Posts: 52
Location:
Wareham, Mass
Registered:
April 2010
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Re: MITCHELL ULTRAMATE 7.0
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Thu, 29 July 2010 17:45
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You are right about those schematics and that phone number problem, but when I tried Ultramate, the diagrams were the same, just a little bigger. I think they all get them directly from the manufacturers, because when I ask dealers to fax to me they are pretty much the same as what I already have from Pathways, with a few exceptions. I wonder if Pathways will be developed any further now that they have CCC One?
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Posts: 2666
Location:
Pelham, AL
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: MITCHELL ULTRAMATE 7.0
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Thu, 29 July 2010 17:53
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| SteveR wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 17:45 |
You are right about those schematics and that phone number problem, but when I tried Ultramate, the diagrams were the same, just a little bigger. I think they all get them directly from the manufacturers, because when I ask dealers to fax to me they are pretty much the same as what I already have from Pathways, with a few exceptions. I wonder if Pathways will be developed any further now that they have CCC One?
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Mitchell does get their diagrams directly from the manufacturers.
Mitchell is actually close or higher than CCC from my experience. However, one thing about Mitchell is you have to know what they aren't included in labor times. Audatex and CCC include alot more than Mitchell giving them the "look" of being cheaper.
I like the clean look of Mitchell. I think it's easier to read for a consumer though no estimate is meant for that.
Of course I haven't had any practical experience with the other two systems. They may be better. I like UM cuz State Fraud uses it and I can use the P-Pages against them and their arbitrary ways. The editorial staff is easy to contact for incorrect data and changes.
I hate Mitchell though....but it's the necessary evil I choose of the 3.
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Posts: 52
Location:
Wareham, Mass
Registered:
April 2010
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Re: MITCHELL ULTRAMATE 7.0
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Thu, 29 July 2010 18:09
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You are probably right about what is included and what is not. I did a trial run on Mitchell's for a month or so to get more familiar with the Mitchell's p pages, and included items, but that was a few years back. That being said, if you write the exact same items in both systems, like the insurance appraiser does, I see Mitchell's number to be lower, almost without exception. I have seen it substantally lower in a few cases (Trailblazer radiator support for examble). I am sure the p-pages and not included items will account for the differences, but without owning the system, it is hard to tell. I wish it made more financial sense to run both systems , because there are some really cheap companies that use Mitchells in this area.
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Posts: 2666
Location:
Pelham, AL
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: MITCHELL ULTRAMATE 7.0
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Thu, 29 July 2010 18:32
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| SteveR wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 18:09 |
You are probably right about what is included and what is not. I did a trial run on Mitchell's for a month or so to get more familiar with the Mitchell's p pages, and included items, but that was a few years back. That being said, if you write the exact same items in both systems, like the insurance appraiser does, I see Mitchell's number to be lower, almost without exception. I have seen it substantally lower in a few cases (Trailblazer radiator support for examble). I am sure the p-pages and not included items will account for the differences, but without owning the system, it is hard to tell. I wish it made more financial sense to run both systems , because there are some really cheap companies that use Mitchells in this area.
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Radiator supports are one area where Mitchell appears to be off. However, with the adds and other items not included (typically R&I horns, washer bottles, set back wiring etc) the labor ends up being as much or more than the others.
CCC and Audatex go from the outside in.....Mitchell works from inside out. (may be vice versa but you get the picture)
Mitchell has "add to R&R radiator support"
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Posts: 52
Location:
Wareham, Mass
Registered:
April 2010
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Re: MITCHELL ULTRAMATE 7.0
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Thu, 29 July 2010 19:26
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Actually CCC works from the outside in as well, like Mitchell's does. The Trailblazer radiator support pays 12.8 hours with the following inclusions
Time includes R&I/R&R headlamp assemblies, front panel, battery, battery tray, radiator,
AC condenser, shroud, deflector, lower baffle, side baffles, hood lock, support, support
rod, air intake dust, D&R hood release cable, and front wiring as necessary.
This is the support that is installed under the fender aprons, and comes with two panels to weld in after cutting the aprons.
I think the Mitchell's time is somewhere around 7 or 8 hours, with a lot of the same things included. I have seen this every once in a while on certain vehicles. Another example is Audi doors. The r&i labor for the inner panel that hold the glass is 3.5 hours plus 0.6 for the door trim panel. Mitchell's is 1.8 hours and includes the trim panel. I think it is very difficult to compare two systems, but when two knowledgeable appraisers write the same car, using the same rates, the final number should be very close, regardless of the estimating system.
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Posts: 2666
Location:
Pelham, AL
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: MITCHELL ULTRAMATE 7.0
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Thu, 29 July 2010 20:41
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| Quote: |
title=SteveR wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 19:26]Actually CCC works from the outside in as well, like Mitchell's does. The Trailblazer radiator support pays 12.8 hours with the following inclusions
Time includes R&I/R&R headlamp assemblies, front panel, battery, battery tray, radiator,
AC condenser, shroud, deflector, lower baffle, side baffles, hood lock, support, support
rod, air intake dust, D&R hood release cable, and front wiring as necessary.
This is the support that is installed under the fender aprons, and comes with two panels to weld in after cutting the aprons.
I think the Mitchell's time is somewhere around 7 or 8 hours, with a lot of the same things included. I have seen this every once in a while on certain vehicles. Another example is Audi doors. The r&i labor for the inner panel that hold the glass is 3.5 hours plus 0.6 for the door trim panel. Mitchell's is 1.8 hours and includes the trim panel. I think it is very difficult to compare two systems, but when two knowledgeable appraisers write the same car, using the same rates, the final number should be very close, regardless of the estimating system.
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What year model Trailblazer? Out of curiosity I grabbed an old estimate we wrote in 2008 on a 2004 trailblazer.
13.0 hours with a couple of possible adds depending on equipment
Also added was .5 (in Mech) to "add to R&R mechanical components" and 1.4 (Mech) "evacuate recharge"
R&I horns do not include...another .6 total plus set back wiring etc.
Add 2.8 to R&I both fenders.
Radiator Support R&R
Included Operations
• Remove and install or replace: Shroud when support is serviced by manufacturer as a one piece unit, Radiator assembly when support is serviced by manufacturer as a one piece unit, Impact absorbers or mounting arms if necessary to perform operation.
Not Included Operations
• Refinish radiator support
• Aim lamps if attached to support
• Remove and/or apply: Anti-corrosion rust resistant materials
• Remove and install: Front bumper, Hood panel if necessary, Front header panel, Front fenders, Wiring and/or wiring harness
• Remove and replace: Radiator hoses, Fan, pulley, fan clutch or belts, Decals (example: EPA, body identification, caution/danger)
• Remove and install or replace: Suspension assemblies, Bolted parts and assemblies (example: fluid reservoirs and coolers, vapor canister, cruise control, air conditioning components)
IMPORTANT REMINDER: Labor times for inner panels, rails or reinforcements are with outer panels removed.
NOTE: For Unibody type vehicles see Procedure 8—Front Inner Structure - Unibody.
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